AcadianaMOO
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AcadianaMOO
[log started Wed Feb 7 18:06:30 2007 CST]
Participants: OoglyBooglyBoo, lizlosh, LL, christyneberzsenyi, mday,
Susan, and Keith
Keith turns the Southwestern Cafe Recorder on.
Keith says, "hello all and welcome to this session of CW Online 2007!"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "cat was in the lap sorry"
Keith says, "Elizabeth Losh's research focuses on digital rhetoric and
related ideologies of nationalism and globalization. She has published
articles about government websites, military-funded videogames, online
national libraries, and other electronic artifacts of the virtual
state. "
Keith says, "She is currently the Writing Director of the Humanities
Core Course at U.C. Irvine and is also an active advocate for
information literacy initiatives in higher education. "
Keith says, "She writes a daily column on the politics of digital
culture at Virtualpolitik and is a regular contributor to Siva
Vaidhyanathan's weblog Sivacracy. "
Keith says, "hello, Liz!"
lizlosh says, "Thank you all for coming. I have a slightly less
mangled version of the copy at
http://www.digitalrhetoric.org/computers
andwriting.pdf"
mday claps and cheers to welcome liz
Keith says, "who hoo!"
Keith says, "and for the record, could you all introduce yourself?"
OoglyBooglyBoo claps enthusiastically!
christyneberzsenyi says, "hello, fellow ant eater"
lizlosh says, "I'm still feeling a bit disembodied."
Keith is Keith Dorwick, the University of Louisiana at Lafayette
mday Michael Day, Northern Illinois University
Keith [to lizlosh]: you get over that quickly, except for Oogly, who is
a ghost
OoglyBooglyBoo is Kevin Moberly, assistant Professor of English at
Saint Cloud State University
OoglyBooglyBoo rattles his chains at keith
christyneberzsenyi says, "Christyne Berzsenyi, Penn State University,
Wilkes-Barre, Associate Professor of english and Women's Studies"
Keith will post the slightly less mangled version later tonight for the
record.
LL is Lei Lani Michel, a PhD grad student at the University of
Washington
Susan is Susan Antlitz
Keith says, "that seems to be everybody"
Keith says, "so, Liz, could you start the discussion by quickly
summarizing your work?"
lizlosh says, "Welcome. I should probably talk a little bit about the
context for this project and how I started working on "serious games""
Keith nods
OoglyBooglyBoo listens intently
christyneberzsenyi engaged in your topic
lizlosh says, "I have been working a lot on games designed for soldiers
in Iraq: spotting IEDs, speaking Arabic, etc."
lizlosh says, "As I learned about these programs, which were often
developed at universities close to me in Southern California, I became
interested in their rhetorical function"
lizlosh says, "In other words, I started to think about the ways that
they were reaching audiences beyond the military, because there was a
lot of media coverage"
lizlosh says, "I also started to learn about a whole genre of games
intended to reach first-responders: fire fighters, police officers,
emergency medical technicians, etc"
mday is very interested in the political dimensions of this gaming.
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "fascinating"
Keith nods
christyneberzsenyi says, "desperately needed programming"
Keith says, "and train them..."
lizlosh says, "This is how I came to Dartmouth to interview the team
doing the Virtual Terrorism Response Academy"
lizlosh says, "But I had to be cleared by Homeland Security,
apparently, which was strange."
christyneberzsenyi interested in what phase of development Liz entered
this team's work
Keith notes that this work was funded by Homeland Security...
lizlosh says, "I should also add that in the game development
community, which I also study, there is a lot of interesting debate
about working on military projects as well"
Keith says, "the IML, that is"
Keith wondered about that.
lizlosh says, "Yes, but they also work on federally funded projects of
other kinds"
mday says, "Oh my, that's at Dartmouth? I was there when they got rid
of ROTC in the 70s"
mday says, "But I hear that it's back."
lizlosh says, "Their work is interesting because they've been
criticized by game developers for creating projects that are too
didactic, projects that don't take advantage of the kind of
trial-and-error that the game environment supplies."
OoglyBooglyBoo (to lizlosh) "that debate has been going on for a while,
ever since the army got interested in oh, what was that early tank
aracade game"
mday likes the term "too didactic"
[ 6:16 pm ]
OoglyBooglyBoo can't remember
christyneberzsenyi says, "consistent with their culture"
mday [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: yes, and "smart targets" that desensitized
combatants
Keith says, "because of what Gee called the "do-over factor""
Keith says, "right?"
lizlosh says, "They see their work as very explicitly rhetorical in the
most traditional sense. Virtual instructors in the academy are often
posed at podiums and use oratorical flourishes."
christyneberzsenyi musing about "friendly fire"
OoglyBooglyBoo . o O ( Gee, the guy who wrote a book about games after
playing what, 2 of them? )
OoglyBooglyBoo . o O ( oh was that an ad hominem attack )
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: yes, it was
Keith grins
LL laughs
mday . o O ( operating on an outdated model of teaching and learning )
christyneberzsenyi laughing
OoglyBooglyBoo . o O ( I've only read two novels by Jane Austin, maybe
I could write a book? )
lizlosh says, "What's also interesting to me is the way these games and
simulations use space for mnemonic purposes and how they use the old
trope of the memory palace."
christyneberzsenyi says, "oh a little sass!"
Keith says, "but these games are designed not to encourage do-over
because in the types of situations that exist, you may not get to
do-over the error you made that blew up the building"
mday is fascinated by the Memory Palace, but has only looked at Ong's
and Frances Yates takes on it.
Keith listens to Liz
lizlosh says, "But Gee has a MacArthur grant for game development.
Those of us who are actually interested in making games should think
more about the Higher Ed environment."
Keith says, "Theresa of Avila uses such a schema but it's common to
many medieval texts"
Keith says, "think more in what sense?"
Susan (to mday) "but maybe for a reason... teacher-orators represent
tradition icons of education-- easily recognizable even if no longer
accurate-- perhaps the intetion to legitimize the virtual by
connecting it to the too-traditional"
mday [to lizlosh]: is there any hope of your work influencing the
makers of these serious games?
lizlosh says, "The story of the origins of the Memory Palace in Cicero
is interesting. It involves a disaster. A collapsed house."
mday [to Susan]: yes
LL thinks of orwell's memory holes and memory palaces
mday says, "yes, simonides?"
mday says, "or was Cicero's a different story."
lizlosh says, "You're probably right, Susan, but I think that these
people are also interested in epistemological spaces in ways that
perhaps we aren't engaged enough in our own classrooms."
lizlosh says, "But there's also a strange Foucauldian dimension to some
of these e-spaces in the games. It's literally about the clinic,
academy, or office as a space of exclusion."
Susan nods
mday says, "Excluding whom? How and why?"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to lizlosh) "oh say more: I was fascinated by that in
your article"
lizlosh says, "Have any of you tried to use 3-D virtual worlds with
your students?"
christyneberzsenyi says, "I was curious about what your critique was
about that focus on the space and not on the bodies of patients or
about the doctors or other personel"
OoglyBooglyBoo raises his hands: is trying it now on a limited basis
lizlosh says, "Well, Michael, there are literally keys and codes to get
you through doors in the games."
mday used MOO, but not 3D. You mean like second life?
Keith takes a magic lantern out of its case.
lizlosh says, "No, like virtual worlds. CalArts and other places have
used them."
OoglyBooglyBoo showed the students in his tolkein class some fo world
of warcraft; had a very worried grad student in his office the next
day
mday says, "Oh thanks Liz. So there are codes, as in "entertainment"
games, in the serious games."
Keith unfastens the magic lantern.
Keith loads the slide "next" in the magic lantern.
mday says, "More like The Cave, then?"
lizlosh says, "I have a colleague who's used them in our course. But
it was a disaster because the spatial construct wasn't tied enough to
the content to be learned."
OoglyBooglyBoo (to mday) "many games intentionally incorporate cheat
codes to unlock new areas"
Susan (to OoglyBooglyBoo) "why worried?"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Susan) "she thought the whole course was going to be
'playing games'"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Susan) "I quoted derrida to put her at ease"
Susan says, "ah"
Keith laughs
lizlosh says, "It's funny you mention cheat codes. This is a big issue
in Serious Games, which the government funds. Should there be such
codes."
[ 6:27 pm ]
mday says, "mmm... yes, I had students protesting the MOO, even though
text and creation were part of the course."
Susan . o O ( the battle of the mindset )
Keith says, "that question ties to my worries about do-over, assuming
you buy that concept"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to lizlosh) "I wrote a lot in my dissertation about
cheat codes: basically is it cheating, if you follow the rules of the
game by entering a preprogrammed code?"
lizlosh says, "But I was just talking about access codes to open the
door to the Terrorism Academy. You can only go in to learn with one."
Susan . o O ( perceptions of what writing is and does )
Keith says, "games may encourage do-over and cheating and other gamish
sorts of thigns"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "there is callois's notion of ludic and
paidic play"
lizlosh says, "There's a good book by Mia Consalvo coming from MIT
Press about cheating."
Keith says, "but should these? you might learn you can restart the game
but you can't do that with life"
OoglyBooglyBoo oh must read it!
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: yes to both!
Keith says, "access codes would be different, wouldn't they?"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "i agree with gee that do-overs facilitate
the learnign experience; and also trial and error"
Keith says, "yes, which is true for GAMES"
mday says, "um, liz there was an article in WIRED a month or two ago
about a terrorism academy, or some training ground for Iraq, but it
wasn't all virtual. It was a place. Does your work have any relation
to that?"
lizlosh says, "Yes, a cheat code is for in game play. An access code
is a pre-requirement to start game play."
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "A lot of times on World of Warcraft, my friends
and I do silly things just to push the boundaries of the game -- what
will happen if we do this?"
Keith says, "but if they encourage you to think that way, might you
worry less about rl consequences?"
christyneberzsenyi says, "so if someone is learning early on in the
process, should there be a do-over? as opposed to later in the process
of learning procedures when it basically operates as a kind of test of
what you know in application?"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to lizlosh) "how to players earn these acess codes?"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "learn"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "learn vs. earn interesting"
Keith [to lizlosh]: or are they required/given out... say as part of
their training?
lizlosh says, "Yes, I read that article. There is also a mixed reality
facilty in Los Angeles called FlatWorld, which I've visited several
times to do interviews. "
Keith says, "this is fascinating stuff"
mday says, "Ahh, that helps me understand even more. Thanks!"
lizlosh says, "What's strange is that there are millions of dollars
being poured into projects without the most basic forms of media
awareness. The Virtual Terrorism Academy, at least, is made by
someone who actually plays games. Deus Ex is his favorite."
LL says, "even the idea of a mixed reality is interesting, in that some
people are +realer+ than others""
Keith nods
LL says, "the use of clinic makes me think of triage in a way, that
these gamers are learning what and who to save with a specific
hierarchy""
lizlosh says, "FlatWorld is pretty strange. I actually open my chapter
on all of this stuff with a description of my first visit there.
They've reconstructed an Iraqi occupied town."
LL says, "some being more points, perhaps, than others?""
mday says, "You would think that with so much money at stake, that they
might actually look at the scholarly research, so as not to waste it.
But no, not our tax dollars!"
lizlosh says, "And there is a stone-throwing child in FlatWorld"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to lizlosh) "sometimes aI wonder if things like the
virtual trainign academy are less games and more simulations, in that
unlike Deuz ex, which is explicitely fictional, the virtual training
academy alludes to, and (as Baudrillard says) overwrites a version of
reality"
lizlosh says, "Actually, they are listening to some smart game studies
people with a rhetorical bent. Like Ian Bogost."
mday says, "right, the Iraqi town is what the Wired article was about."
lizlosh shows the slide "Second" on the son et lumiere.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Ian Bogost has argued that videogames are a persuasive medium but
claims we perceive their messages differently from how we perceive
verbal or visual rhetoric.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
lizlosh says, "I just had to try to show a slide."
OoglyBooglyBoo cheers
mday says, "good slide!"
Keith laughs, and knows JUST the feeling..
mday claps for the magic lantern
Keith says, "actually, that's mine"
christyneberzsenyi says, "am I missing the slide?"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "how does bogost say that we percieve the messages
of games differently?"
Keith says, "liz owns the son et lumiere (very appropriate for
Acadiana, we might add!)"
~ Darkness descends across Acadiana. ~
mday is interested in how the perception of video games is different.
Does it have to do with time, space, and sound? Or something more?
lizlosh says, "He says that we are also aware of a 'procedural
rhetoric' when we play."
OoglyBooglyBoo can see that
mday says, "Oh I like that. What has to happen first, in order for
something else to happen."
lizlosh says, "Bogost says that we are aware that there are certain
rules constraining what we can and can't do in the game."
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "i.e. the awarness of goals (ludic play)"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "and that influences how we percieve the
rhetoric?"
christyneberzsenyi says, "got ya. can't figure out how to whisper
back. hahah"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "of the images"
[ 6:37 pm ]
lizlosh says, "So the game Grand Theft Auto has this very obvious
message about sex and violence. But if we play the game there's also
a message about urban space and limitations on traditional foodways
created by the environment. You are forced to eat fast food in the
game, and you have to run around to keep you from getting fat."
Keith says, "just like real life!"
mday giggles at that
OoglyBooglyBoo (to lizlosh) "yes and there is also implict messages
about class, and economy and politics"
lizlosh says, "Well, it's more donuts and coffee in my real life"
lizlosh says, "Exactly"
Keith says, "donuts count as fast food, unless you fry 'em up yourself"
lizlosh says, "But you don't get those messages without actually
playing the game."
Keith says, "i'm sorry, I forgot where you're going with this.. could
you refresh my memory?"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "yeah grand theft auto is an interesting sort of
narrative"
christyneberzsenyi enjoying the critique from Liz
lizlosh says, "I do a lot of stuff about gender and serious games. The
news media often covers these games without playing them, so they miss
the messages of the actual rules."
Keith is also
OoglyBooglyBoo (to lizlosh) "I agree with you wholeheartidly about
that"
Keith says, "ah, thank you. Insider vs. outsider scholarship --- I
rarely run into that with queer research (since queer can include
deviant straight), but I do sometimes run into that with disability
research, especially with HIV."
LL interested in if there are marked gender differences in these real
games
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "In my research on games, I am fascinated with how
games like grand theft auto teach players that you can only 'win' by
playing the rules"
lizlosh says, "The artist Jim Munroe did a great film about GTA called
"My Trip to Liberty City." Worth checking out as an example of how
you can do a sort of Michel de Certeau thing of using subversive
tactics in games. "
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "when the whole game is about breaking rules"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "oh I definitely will check that out"
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: some of my work on Monopoly is focusing on
electronic versions that allow you to choose whether cheating is
allowed.
Keith says, "note to room: come to our panel on games at CW Detroit!"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "it's like grand theft auto presents players
with foucault's caraceral city writ large"
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: exactly
lizlosh says, "You might want to check out Espen Aarseth's new stuff
about Monopoly money as well."
Keith [to lizlosh]: thanks! I will
Keith says, "ok, just a few more moments"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to lizlosh) "do you see any of that with these
terrorism trainign games"
Keith says, "if you all want type ask recorder for text
and the recorder will send you a transcript"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "you said the guy who is developing it loves deuas
ex, which is a game that is modeled on a sort of response to a
biological outbreak"
lizlosh says, "In the terrorism training games, they make a real
attempt to include women as rhetors."
lizlosh says, "This game is actually about a radiation attack. But
there is one about an Anthrax attack from another team."
christyneberzsenyi says, "Liz are you involved in the development of
thise game or is it already developed and done?"
lizlosh says, "And, of course, the pre-cursor to this game is a mystery
story about a malaria attack."
Keith notes the time and asks participants to start winding things
down...
mday says, "on cheating: online we use the scrabble dictionary, whereas
in real play you can't."
Keith [to mday]: that's not cheating though... just a change of rules
christyneberzsenyi says, "interesting difference"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to lizlosh) "I would be interested to hear more about
the conscious attempt they make to include women rhetors"
Keith says, "since the dictionary is built in"
lizlosh says, "The game is in production now, with a release date later
this year."
LL says, "and perhaps, so ideologies become the rules, and you can't
cheat what's hard to articulate""
lizlosh says, "I am not working with them, but I am studying them as an
outside scholar."
christyneberzsenyi (to lizlosh) "I see"
Keith nods
Keith says, "it's very interesting research.."
LL says, "this is is fascinating, and a bit scary""
Keith thanks everyone for the conversation
lizlosh says, "I have been asked to serve as a consultant on a game
called 'Immune Attack' "
lizlosh says, "Yes, thank you."
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "that's interesting: when to rules become
ideologies (channeling Althusser) Imaginarey representations of the
real conditions of existence"
christyneberzsenyi says, "What are you thoughts about how they focus on
the realism of the space and not on the people and bodies and such"
Keith would like to hear more about that sometime, at a future
conference!
[ 6:47 pm ]
mday says, "It makes me feel a bit sick hearing about all these
simulations. Maybe we don't need real illnesses any more?"
OoglyBooglyBoo would too
lizlosh says, "That's often the case in these games."
mday says, "But I too enjoyed the presentation and thoughtful
discussion."
Keith says, "very much so!"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to mday) "Baudrillard said that simulation makes it
impossible to tell the real illness fromt he fake illness"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "well something like that"
mday was thinking of Baudrillard too, Oogly
Keith is going to turn off the recorder now... if you want a copy of
the transcript, please type ask recorder for text
Keith says, "or anything real from anything fake, since the distinction
collapses"
Keith says, "ready for the recorder shutdown?"
christyneberzsenyi says, "staying vague about the illness in the
simulation certainly does not realistically prepare health care
professionals for the vulgar or very physical functional aspects of
the real body"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "no don;t end with Baudrillard!"
Keith laughs
mday says, "noooooooooo! Then we'll all be lost in the funhouse
forever."
Keith [to christyneberzsenyi]: yes!!! that worries me too...
OoglyBooglyBoo (to christyneberzsenyi) "yes: how do you simulate smells
and body fluids and all that ick!"
Keith [to lizlosh]: why don't you have the last word? since it's your
presentation!
Keith smiles
lizlosh says, "Well, there are now virtual surgery simulators. I went
to a workshop sponsored by Stanford Medical School and skipped lunch
afterward."
Keith laughs
lizlosh says, "Thank you all for coming."
Keith says, "there we go! ok, thank you all!"
[log closed]