AcadianaMOO
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AcadianaMOO
Patrick Berry, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.
Sybelle Gruber, Northern Arizona University.
Gail Hawisher, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.
Janice Walker, Georgia Southern University.
Joyce R. Walker, Western Michigan University.
Questions provided by Kevin Moberly, St. Cloud State University.
[log started Tue Feb 6 19:01:58 2007 CST]
Participants: kiwi, OoglyBooglyBoo, Susan, Kami, Keith, Sibylle_Gruber,
Joyce, Gail, LL, patrick_berry, booboo, mday, and JoelB
KeithDorwick turns the Southwestern Cafe Recorder on.
OoglyBooglyBoo (to KeithDorwick) "yep turn on the recorder"
KeithDorwick looks
Joyce says, "I'm joyce.""
OoglyBooglyBoo is Kevin Moberly, St. Cloud State University
kiwi is Janice Walker, Georgia Southern University--and GRN
(http://www.georgiasouthern.edu/~writling/GRN/)
patrick_berry says, "i'm patrick""
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Hi everybody. I am on Arizona Time, still at
work, which is Northern Arizona University"
patrick_berry says, "of course""
Susan is Susan Antlitz, LeTourneau University
LL is lei lani michel, grad student at university of washington
Kami is Kami Cox, Georgia Southern University
Joyce says, "ah...I see...formally! Joyce Walker Western Michigan
University.""
KeithDorwick is Keith Dorwick from the University of Louisiana at
Lafayette
booboo steps into the Southwestern Cafe.
Gail says, "And I'm Gail Hawisher, U. of Illinis"
booboo says, "hello everyone"
patrick_berry says, "Patrick Berry, also, U of I""
KeithDorwick says, "we're just introducing ourselves for the record"
booboo says, "Jane Lasarenko, Slippery Rock U"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "the topic of tonight's discussion is:"
Gail says, "Where's Janice"
kiwi [to Gail]: that's me
OoglyBooglyBoo shows slide 1 on the CWOnline 2007 Projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Technology and the Culture of Mentoring in the
Computers and Writing Community
CWOnline 2007
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Gail says, "oh, thanks!"
kiwi grins at Gail.
KeithDorwick just adores the slide projector
KeithDorwick changes his name to keith.
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "this will be an informal discussion that will be
structured by a series of questions, which I will project"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "are facilitators / experts for tonight are:"
OoglyBooglyBoo shows slide 2 on the CWOnline 2007 Projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Facilitators:
Patrick Berry, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.
Sybelle Gruber, Northern Arizona University.
Gail Hawisher, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.
Janice Walker, Georgia Southern University.
Joyce R. Walker, Western Michigan University.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
mday steps into the Southwestern Cafe.
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "I would like to thank all of them for
participating"
kiwi [to mday]: mday!
keith says, "hello!!! perfect timing, we just started!"
Gail says, "Can we correct the spelling of Sibylle's name? "
booboo waves to mike
Sibylle_Gruber says, "I actually am S I B Y L L E"
keith [to mday]: we're introducing ourselves
kiwi says, "Where's my R? "
keith says, "you use a R?"
Gail says, "Hi Michael!"
kiwi nods to keith.
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "woops"
kiwi [to keith]: Janice R. Walker
Joyce says, "janice, you are not cool enough for an R I guess.""
keith makes of note of the name changes
kiwi [to keith]: it adds to the confusion--joyce and i are BOTH
jrwalkers
mday has not eaten, and can't stay long. This day has been (*)!
mday says, "hi everyone."
kiwi comforts mday.
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "ok, so our first question is:"
OoglyBooglyBoo shows slide 3 on the CWOnline 2007 Projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
What is your relationship with the students who you advise or mentor
now? To what degree are these relationships similar to those that you
shared with your major advisor or with the faculty members who
mentored you? In what ways are they different?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
keith says, "and if I suddenly go silent, it's because I'm helping
someone on the terrace get here and speaking!"
Susan nods to mday. The end of the week approaches
Joyce says, "so who wants to address this first?""
mday says, "Cheryl Ball reports that she's been trying to get here, but
is having tech difficulties"
kiwi says, "Kami is one of the students I mentor. Maybe I should let
her answer the first part of this question."
kiwi grins at Kami.
Kami (to kiwi) "you beat me to it"
Gail sympathizes with Michael for his bad day
keith says, "poor thing"
Joyce says, "gail, do you have metntors you think have influenced
you?""
Sibylle_Gruber says, "hmmm, I thought we could copy/paste, but it's not
working. I had written some things up to get us going."
Kami says, "i'm a masochist what can i say...I keep going back ot her""
kiwi [to Sibylle_Gruber]: you can copy and paste, but type the " first
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Sibylle_Gruber) "you might have to use control-c and
control-v"
keith has been very much mentored by both Gail and Cindy especially in
terms of publishing .... and wouldn't have survived his diss without
Cindy...
kiwi smiles at Kami.
Kami says, "my realtionship with my mentor/advisor would have to be a
productive and highly eventful one""
Gail says, "Well I had one professor that made sure he always put any
citations related to my work in my mailbox (this was before email)
Honestly!"
OoglyBooglyBoo was mentored by keith
keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: you can... use the copy and paste at the top
of the screen
Susan says, "I'm a little young yet to have mentees :) But for me, the
Connectins MOO from about 2000-2004 was the best mentoring experience
ever. "
Kami grins at kiwi
Gail says, "But I really appreciated his doing that!"
Joyce says, "my own current relationships are very much influenced by
the mentors I've had.""
kiwi says, "My own mentors were very much people in the C&W community
online--people like Michael Day, Gail Hawisher, Cindy Selfe, Barry
Maid, and so many others."
keith [to Joyce]: mine too
kiwi nods to Joyce.
Sibylle_Gruber says, "nope. It's not working. (the copy/paste)"
kiwi [to Joyce]: yes, mine, too
keith working with Kevin was such a joy and so productive we still do
it two years later...
Joyce says, "what's interesting to me is that my relationships as
mentee have not ended, but keep going as I move into my career.""
kiwi nods to Joyce.
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Joyce) "I have found that too"
Kami says, "without kiwi over there, I would not have as many
oppertunities as I do now...""
Gail says, "Keith I didn't realize you were Kevins mentor"
keith directed his diss!
keith changes his name to Keith.
kiwi [to Kami]: none of us would be where we are, I think, without our
mentors--who often become lifelong friends
kiwi says, "As well as colleagues."
Keith says, "though really, it was more, well, I mean, he just worked
hard and showed me stuff"
Joyce says, "what I wonder is if our relationships in C&@W are in any
ways different from other fields?""
Kami gives a group hug
mday says, "I've been well mentored by just about everyone here, and by
the combined living database of MegaByte University, ACW-L, Techrhet,
WPA-L, the Tuesday Cafe, MediaMOO, and Connections MOO. What a
fabulous support system!"
kiwi [to Keith]: yup, that happens a lot!
booboo nods to mike
Keith says, "and I would ask questions... "
Keith says, "which was fun"
booboo says, "but wonders whether we're granting "mentor" too broad a
scope"
patrick_berry says, "if find that C&W has really the best mentoring""
Keith [to Joyce]: do you think ours laset longer past the
diss/graduation?
kiwi nods to patrick_berry.
OoglyBooglyBoo (to booboo) "say more?"
Joyce says, "booboo, what scope would you give it?""
mday says, "And Interversity, too. But maybe we are casting too wide a
net, as booboo says"
booboo says, "not sure at all! :)"
Keith perks his ears
[ 7:12 pm ]
Joyce says, "keith, I think they do, and that is what makes them
different.""
Susan says, "I am a wholist sort of person. For me connections and
integration of the profesional, academic, social, and spiritual is
important. A good mentor for me would be able to address all those
areas. Or at least acknowledge/respect the importance of integrating
those things"
booboo says, "i think everyone of us here would acknowledge that the
help and sharing of this community with one another is incredible"
Kami says, "I attended the C&W and GRN last year..and that experience
for me was wonderful""
Gail says, "It's certainly a supportive community--and always has
been!"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "I'd be interested in everybody's defintions of
mentoring."
LL is grateful for great mentors on her diss committee
Joyce says, "so here is my theory...I think the difference is that we
have more "equal" or less authoritative relationships with grad
students and so "mentor/mentee" relationships after grad school are
also different."
Kami says, "Everyone as a community was suprisingly open to an
undergraduate""
Keith [to Kami]: but is that mentoring> Jane may have it right!
booboo says, "but does that define "mentoring""
patrick_berry says, "kami, last year was my first C&W conference and I
thought it was just great.""
kiwi says, "I think because of the nature of what we do, we don't have
the same sense of mentors/mentoring as other fields. When I attended
a sig for C&W mentoring years ago as a grad student, I realized so
many of the "mentors" were the grad students--and the "mentees" were
sometimes tenured faculty."
Joyce says, "exactly, Kiwi.""
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Sibylle_Gruber) "I define a mentor as somebody who
helps introduce a new member of a community to the established
discourse, but who does not dictate that discourse too them"
Keith [to kiwi]: yes the tension between experience in the field and
tech skills can make for tensions!
JoelB steps into the Southwestern Cafe.
Sibylle_Gruber asks Joyce. Do you think that's a feature of the C&W
community, or a feature of gender differences?
Kami (to patrick_berry) "mine too, and everyone was so open and
helpful"
Keith [to JoelB]: welcome
OoglyBooglyBoo likes social constructivism though he can rarely spell
it in moo
kiwi [to Keith]: yup, exactly.
Joyce says, "so our definition of mentoring is different because it
establishes different kinds of power relationships.""
Keith agrees with Joyce
kiwi waves to JoelB.
booboo says, "as janice and i were saying yesterday, we both miss these
interactions enormously"
Gail says, "Building on Joyce's comments, I think grad students and
faculty are actually colleagues with one another which isn't always so
in other fields "
Sibylle_Gruber says, "I've been involved in several mentoring
activities. The most serious ones are those with graduate assistants"
kiwi says, "You know, at the time, I think this kind of MOO interfaces
also had an impact on our community--since we were all meeting back
then at Tuesday Cafe each week and hugging and being silly
together--even if we hadn't yet met f2f."
Keith says, "yes... I have been thinking how nice it might be to have a
monthly party."
Joyce says, "I suppose the online thing does make a difference too, as
online relationships are a bit less overtly hierarchical in terms of
faculty/grad student/undergrad.""
OoglyBooglyBoo sounds the warning: next slide coming up in 30 secs
kiwi says, "Playing together helped form a sense of community--and
often it was one where we had no idea what "status" we each held."
Kami says, "thanks""
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: I direct a lotta disses, and that's very
very intense though pleasurable
OoglyBooglyBoo shows slide 4 on the CWOnline 2007 Projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
How, when, and where did you learn how to advise or mentor students?
How did you learn to be advise or mentor? Are you still learning? Is
this a subject that is explicitly or implicitly taught? How?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Susan says, "mentor: Someone committed to long-term nurturing and
collaboration across a broad spectrum of identity components:
professional, social, spiritual, etc."
Joyce says, "I definitely learned this explicity from Gail.""
Susan says, "yeah, I know, I sure ask for a lot :)"
Susan grins
Keith says, "oh wow, that one's tough, oogly. I sure was not trained in
this!"
OoglyBooglyBoo thunk up that question all by himself!
Sibylle_Gruber says, "I don't think I can pinpoint one instant when I
learned how to be a good mentor or advisor. It's a long process"
mday says, "still learning. And learned what little I know from those
who mentored me. Pay it forward."
kiwi says, "Oh, I'm definitely still learning! But I had great models
in the C&W community. So I just try to do what people like Gail and
Cindy and Michael et al. did."
kiwi [to mday]: exactly
booboo says, "definitely still learning"
Joyce says, "In fact, in job interviews I claimed her as my model
explicitly.""
Keith says, "not by my colleagues.. though people here helped by
demonstration."
Susan boos heirarchy and compartmentalization
kiwi . o O ( mday and i are twins btw--so whatever he says is what I
think )
Susan grins
Keith says, "WWCD? What Would Cindy Do? WWGD? What Would Gail Do? and
WWHD? What Would Hugh Do?"
Gail says, "yeah, online relationships tend to be intimate in ways that
doesn't always happen ftf. Interesting point"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Yes, I definitely am still learning with every
student I talk to."
patrick_berry says, "I'm learning not to immitate my mentors, realizing
that sometimes, I need to be a different type of mentor to different
students. "
mday says, "this is why I like it that at CW conferences grads can
mentor profs, and do a great job of it."
Keith has talked with Hugh at conferences on and off about this...
kiwi grins at Keith.
kiwi nods to Gail.
OoglyBooglyBoo (to patrick_berry) "say more?"
Joyce says, "true Patrick...it's a balance of learning your own style
in combination with what you learn from mentors.""
Keith [to patrick_berry]: are you tenure track or a grad student or
what?
Sibylle_Gruber says, "patrick, that's a good point. Some students need
help with professionalism; others want to know how to make it through
school day by day..."
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: that's what I want to know!
Joyce says, "true Mday...the computers do put a spin on it that is
important.""
kiwi [to patrick_berry]: that's a very good point. Every student is
unique.
Keith says, "how to make it day by day"
OoglyBooglyBoo agrees with sibylle: the mentoring he does for freshmen
is very different than for grad students
patrick_berry says, "also, I think different people value different
levels of personal engagement.""
Gail says, "uh, oh, Joyce--I'm glad they hired you ;-) Thanks for the
kind words!"
Keith says, "in terms of professionalism, my heads have been amazing...
Darrell Bourque and Marcia Gaudet"
Joyce says, "I think Patrick's point is also about the self.""
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Before I became a WPA, my idea of mentoring was
very different. I didn't think of the day-to-day issues very much. I
provided more mentoring on job searches, interviews, what to do after
school."
kiwi [to Joyce]: yes, true.
Joyce says, "one has to figure out how to BE a mentor through a process
of learning about what one's skills are.""
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: we have to tell first year students, yes you
really really do have to come to class. That rarely comes up with
graduate students.
booboo says, "is there a fundamental difference between 'advising' and
'mentoring'?"
Joyce says, "or as Sibylle notes, through the tasks that one's job
requires.""
kiwi [to booboo]: oh, good question! Yes, I think there is definitely
a fundamental difference!
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Keith, you are lucky. I do have to tell the grad
students from time to time that I expect them to be there in body and
in MIND"
Keith [to patrick_berry]: yes, and that can affect who chooses to work
with what faculty.
OoglyBooglyBoo (to booboo) "I think advising is more formal and less
personal: more beurocratic (sp?)"
mday says, "yes, Sibylle. When you WPA, the day-by-day concerns of
surviving as a grad or instructor come to the surface. I do a lot of
triage-style mentoring at the point of need, here on the home turf"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Sibylle_Gruber) "I had to tell a 400 level undergrad
that just the other day"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Michael, can you explain the triage mentoring?"
kiwi says, "It's one thing to advise a student. Mentoring is a much
more relational thing."
Keith [to patrick_berry]: Jim McDonald and I split on this almost
exactly.. I get the students who want to run and do it all themselves,
and he gets the students who really really want to be directed.
booboo says, "i see that as advising..."
mday says, "And no two mentees and their concerns are alike."
Joyce says, "as susan said, mentoring is a more long-term
committment.""
booboo nods to kiwi
kiwi nods to Joyce.
Gail says, "But mentors also advise, hmn?"
Keith [to Joyce]: and more of a friendship/collegial thing
Keith [to Gail]: but most advisors aren't mentors...
booboo says, "always...i hope :)"
kiwi [to Gail]: yup
Susan nods. And advising is more of a short-term official sort of
assignment
kiwi nods to Keith.
Kami says, "i agree that most advisor's aren't mentors...""
booboo says, "to me, mentoring is a particularly personal and committed
relationship"
patrick_berry says, "I am so grateful at U of I to find mentors that
can expect a great deal from their graduate students and still be nice
about it. My earlier experiences in school were different. ""
Keith has lots of students, but I'd count maybe five as those I now
mentor.. some of whom have never taken classes with me
kiwi [to Susan]: well, not always official maybe--I mean, advising =
giving advice, right?
[ 7:22 pm ]
mday says, "At certain times of the semester, some mentees freak out
and need general advice to stay calm, and specific advice about how to
survive certain pressures."
Keith says, "mentoring, you model as well as give advice"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "I am not sure whether I would see mentoring as
personal. I am very careful about keeping all my mentoring activities
very professional."
Susan nods to kiwi
OoglyBooglyBoo sounds the 30 second warning: next slide coming!
Joyce says, "keith, that is also important. Being a personal and
scholarly model.""
patrick_berry says, "The work feels much more collaborative...I think
that's the best kind of mentoring. "
Keith says, "and then there are the collaborators... of my ex-students
and current students I'd only count Kevin in that category."
kiwi [to Sibylle_Gruber]: i think that depends--it's professional while
you're in a student/professor relationship (or it needs to be), but it
can extend past that
booboo (to Sibylle_Gruber) "can we have a very personal
professionalism?
"
Kami says, "I have two seperate advisor's. One only knows me as a name
on a piece of paper, the other knows me personally...""
Keith says, "we just work well together... hence this conference"
Joyce says, "patrick, so it is about the power relationships.""
OoglyBooglyBoo shows slide 5 on the CWOnline 2007 Projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
How is your relationship to the students you mentor affected by the
other roles you assume in the professional communities in which you
are involved?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "this was one of Sybelle's questions that I liked
a lot"
Joyce says, "sibylle might speak to this....do these need to be
separated?""
Gail says, "I know this sounds kind of sappy, but I always think its
important to treat those with whom we work--grad students and
colleagues--as really responsible professionals and important human
beings . . . ."
OoglyBooglyBoo apologizes for the mispelling
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Booboo, That's a good question. I am not sure how
I would answer that right now. I guess we could"
kiwi thinks Kami can speak to that, too (Kami, how did coming to the
C&W conference w/me and seeing me in the professional community affect
your relationship with me?)
mday says, "And I'm at the same time wondering if the long term
advising I am doing for some grads and instructors is mentoring, or,
if it isn't really by choice, what is it? Long term intervention?
Coaching? What do we call it when we do long term advising of this
kind?"
Keith [to Gail]: who deserve to be treated well....
Joyce says, "to me, they are very related. I think of it as much the
same thing.""
kiwi [to mday]: good question
Keith [to mday]: I think it's not time, it's intensity and it's
vulnerability.
booboo says, "good point, mike"
mday says, "because mentoring seems to reply a reciprocality "
Kami says, "If anything seeing Dr. Walker interact within the
professional community only strengthened my relationship with her""
Keith says, "one thing about mentoring, you have to let them see the
warts... what happens when a project goes awry?"
mday says, "that isn't always there."
Joyce says, "except, there are ways that you protect mentees that you
don't do with colleagues""
Gail says, "Yes, exactly, Keith"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "When I was thinking of that question, I was
trying to figure out how I mentor as a feminist vs. an administrator.
I know that the 2 are not exclusive, but I have different priorities
when I am in one role vs in another role."
booboo nods to Joyce
Keith [to Joyce]: yeah... and the hard part is transitioning from
mentee to colleague
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: would you still consider me your mentor?
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: or something else, some other role?
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "definitely"
mday says, "but I seem to be talking about two different situations:
the folks I mentor online and the folks I mentor/advise/supervise here
in my dept."
Kami says, "Not that I didn't think she didn't have a clue what she was
talking about :), but seeing her in action, and the rest of the
community...well, inspired me for lack of a better terminology"
Joyce says, "sibylle, how would these affect you?"
patrick_berry says, "Keith, I think that it is sooo valuable to let
students see the warts, the struggles that we have. It goes a long way
in helping students recognize that they are okay too."
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: oh ok, because I think of it a bit
differently.. i think of it as more collegial, and try not to
interfere!
kiwi [to Keith]: sometimes, true. But the best mentoring relationships
I think grow naturally into colleagues
LL agrees with patrick_berry
Keith [to LL]: I do too
Keith says, "well, yeah, cause i said it above!"
kiwi grins at Keith.
patrick_berry )
mday says, "and my question is as much in response to this last slide
as it is to the first. How are those relationships different?"
kiwi grins at Kami.
patrick_berry grins Keith
Joyce says, "I mean, do we mentor differently than we interact with
other scholars as a tech scholar or as a feminist?""
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Joyce, I am thinking of traditional feminist
attributes: collaboration, no hierarchies, etc. Then I am thinking
that as an administrator, I exist in hierarchies. That creates
different kinds of relationships."
Keith grins Patrick back
booboo (to mday) "i'm still stuck on that also"
kiwi [to Kami]: you also saw lots of other grad students as well as
faculty as human beings who wanted to welcome you into the community
:)
Joyce says, "sibylle...I see...do you think that affects what you do
with mentees?""
Keith [to kiwi]: yes!!!
OoglyBooglyBoo sounds the 30 second warning: next slide coming!
Keith pants and stretches out his hands!
Gail says, "Ah that's a good question, Joyce"
Kami (to kiwi) "and welcome me they did...almost unconditionally"
kiwi stretches and hands out her pants.
kiwi nods to Kami.
OoglyBooglyBoo shows slide 6 on the CWOnline 2007 Projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Based these responses, are we describing a mode of discourse: a method
of producing knowledge? What are characteristics and preoccupations of
this discourse? What are its concerns? How are these expressed and
taught? How is this discourse perpetuated?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Joyce, I do. I talk about professionalism very
differently when I talk to a GA vs. talking to somebody who goes on
the job market."
Keith [to Kami]: yes
Joyce says, "I mean, I resist hierarchy as an administrator also.""
booboo . o O ( part of the difference surrounds the kind of commitment,
I think. With mentees we have a stake in their success, less so, I
think with advisees )
kiwi says, "I think the mentoring relationship is more a recognition of
someone's abilities to contribute to the profession than anything
else."
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: wow.. I think the major concern of mentoring
as discourse is that is a discourse that resists easy assumptions
about place in the academy
Joyce says, "Sibylle, is your conversation with GA different because
you are technically their supervisor?"
Keith [to booboo]: precisely!
mday says, "What Joyce said. I try to resist hierarchy but am forced
into it by things like our union contract and our grad school
policies. That may be why it's so much easier with folks in C & W.
I'm not the prof, and I am not the boss."
kiwi says, "When I recognize that, I want to encourage that any way I
can."
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Joyce. Yep, I try to do that as well. But it's
sometimes harder than it should be. For example, I don't have a
network of administrators that I work with. I establish collaboration
with the GAs, but when I have to talk to the provost, I take on a
different role."
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: how are those different (GA vs job market)?
aren't your GA's looking for jobs?
Keith is a bit confused by that distinction.
kiwi . o O ( unlike what i've seen in some fields where that same
recognition seems to lead to, well, jealousy? )
Joyce says, "sibylle...right. Working in that hierarchy even changes
sometimes what you can share...what WARTS you can make visible."
mday says, "keith, there might be a distinction between coaching for
success in the classroom vs. coaching for success on the job market."
Keith [to kiwi]: yeah we CELEBRATE people getting ahead
patrick_berry says, "I think the Discourse really extends in so many
ways. Joyce and I were recently working on a collaboration. As I saw
the responses that participants were giving to each other, I was so
impressed by the congeniality in which feedback was given. We had a
undergraduate working with us. And I'm sure he learned a great deal
from this project too. (He contributed a lot as well.""
mday says, "but I dunno. It's all part of the same thing, or should
be."
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Keith, yes, they might be (in the future). But
with the GAs, I am concerned about their day-to-day performances. Only
from time to time do we address the big picture (what happens after
grad school)"
kiwi [to Keith]: exactly
Joyce [to Keith]: I agree. When thinking about this discussion that is
one thing I decided was important.
Keith [to mday]: well, true, but aren't both kinds of professional
discourse?
Joyce says, "there seems to be less -- this is MY idea -- kind of
thinking.""
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: for me, it's all one, but I don't have to
yell at them for missing their own class.
mday says, "Yep, but different shades thereof, I think"
[ 7:32 pm ]
Gail says, "I'm so glad that Jody's student got to see you all in
action, Patrick"
Susan says, "I think exploration is a big part of both scholarship and
mentoring. So, when mentor helps a mentee to explore posibile
directions, strengths weaknesses, new directions to grow in, that does
indeed carry over to scholarly endeavors. "
Keith says, "and it goes both ways"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "I had an interesting discussion not too long ago
about success: what we consider success (going on to grad school,
getting a tenure track job, etc--might not be what our mentees
consider to be successful"
Joyce says, "I honestly can't imagine having Gail dismiss or reject my
ideas because they don't agree with hers...""
kiwi says, "So, maybe the distinction is "institutional mentoring" vs.
I don't know what to call it...."
Keith says, "lots of time mentoring Kevin involved me saying, oh yeah
yeah I can see that...."
mday says, "I've seen that quite a bit recently too, Sibylle."
booboo says, "interesting, sibylle"
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: and what KIND of job in the academy they
want. I had to fight folks to be ok with my not wanting to apply to
R1s!
kiwi nods to Joyce.
booboo says, "i think that's by and large true"
Joyce says, "Keith, exactly!""
OoglyBooglyBoo sounds the 30 second warning: next slide coming!
patrick_berry says, "I also think when there is a strong foundation, a
mentor might be able to say, I don't see that without being
dismissive.""
Keith [to kiwi]: supervision vs. mentoring
mday [to kiwi]: that's what I would have said!
kiwi [to Keith]: yeah
Joyce says, "I think C&W is better as saying...oh, I can see that.""
kiwi [to mday]: of course it is!
Keith says, "for sibylle, her GAs are her employees!"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Keith, yes, that's a great point. It all depends
on what we consider important in our personal and professional lives."
kiwi whuggles mday.
kiwi agrees with keith and Sibylle.
Keith [to patrick_berry]: yeah, if they don't mean merely I wouldn't do
it like that
OoglyBooglyBoo shows slide 7 on the CWOnline 2007 Projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
In what ways is this discourse unique to the Computers and Writing
community? How has it adapted as the needs of the community have
changed? How has it stayed the same?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: it sure does!
Susan says, "a good metaphor is that of walking with someone on a
journey-- seeing where their interess and questions take them. The
mentor isn't always directing. Just sharing the journey."
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Yes, my GAs are my employees. And see, it's very
possessive too. And I would defend them to the end."
kiwi [to Susan]: nice
mday says, "in many ways, I think we're one of the most supportive
communities there is. "
Gail says, "what does whuggles mean?"
kiwi agrees with mday.
LL says, "as a grad student, what i like best about the help my
committee has given me is to trust my instincts in the direction i
like to take, while mentioning what may be difficult""
Keith wonders if there are generational differences here too.. we have,
what, three or four generations of CW specialists?
Joyce says, "mday...do you think the online interactions influence this
collegiality?""
Kami agrees with mday
Keith says, "it's a wiggle plus a hug!"
booboo says, "this is the only truly supportive community i've
encountered so far!"
mday says, "But I can imagine that others feel that their communities
are just as helpful, online and off, and just as encouraging of new
folks and new efforts"
kiwi grins at Keith.
booboo says, "academic...."
Gail says, "That's a great metaphor, Susan!"
kiwi [to mday]: yes, but sometimes academic relationships are fraught
with competition
Joyce says, "I don't know...I don't think that is necessarily true.
Other communities value other things...""
Susan grins
Keith [to mday]: I would like to think that, but I'm not sure it's so.
We have such a long history of grad students being major players. How
many times has the 7Cs been chaired by a grad student?
mday says, "I think that in our case, our history of furious emailing
and mooing (and I mean furious in the sense of "fast and furious") is
a big boost to our ability to be supportive."
kiwi [to mday]: and that's not so in our field i think (at least, not
yet)
Gail says, "Ah,Keith--thank you. Certainly part of the C&W discourse!"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "ll, that's great. I had a similar mentor.:-)"
Joyce says, "like upholding tradition or seeking excellence at any
cost, etc.""
Keith bows to gail!
booboo says, "the ultimate kairotic community"
kiwi [to Keith]: yup
Susan says, "no one wants to walk alone-- so just having company along
the way helps a lot for someone just getting the feel for things in a
field."
Keith says, "and journals founded by grad students"
booboo says, "especially in a "new" field"
Susan nods
Keith says, "ok so here's a question"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "it was great for me when I started going to C&W
conferences. It felt very homey and comfortable."
patrick_berry nods
Keith says, "are there generational differences?"
Kami nods
Gail says, "Michael, you never thought that other communities were as
welcoming . . ."
mday [to Keith]: I'd have to check the records, but 7Cs does have a
good record of being chaired by non TT professionals
Joyce says, "interestingly much of the work on other journals is done
by graduate students...but they don't often get much real credit.""
Keith says, "does mentoring feel different to some of us who have been
part of the founding of the field, differently to those who are now
training in it?"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Keith, I think so. Just in terms of technology
use, we are probably much slower and further behind than the next
generation."
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: oh that is so true.
Joyce says, "keith...I wonder if now that the community is more
established if a kind of pursuit-of-excellence mentality will begin to
be prominent...""
booboo says, "i cite this community in every text i do and thank them
for sharing this incredible journey"
mday says, "I didn't, Gail, but I always wonder what other planets and
other forms of life are out there in the line of virtual support
systems for academics and professionals in a certain field."
patrick_berry says, "Sibylle, I agree.""
Keith [to Joyce]: that is what is behind my question
kiwi wonders about generational differences, too. As C&W grows as a
field and becomes more, well, entrenched, will we see fewer graduate
students allowed to assume--or being given--or wresting--or
whatever--leadership positions? Or will we be able to continue to
allow cream to rise to the top?
Joyce says, "I haven't seen it so far.""
Keith says, "leadership maybe is a little more TT/tenure oriented.."
OoglyBooglyBoo sounds the 30 second warning: next slide coming!
Joyce says, "however, i did hear someone referring to C&W as a
grad-student-conference in a demeaning way once."
Keith says, "collections are very much still put together by a mix"
Susan shudders
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Kiwi, I think that the next generation will
always move in. That's a good thing. It gives us something to think
about."
Keith [to Joyce]: from the community
Susan growls
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: but will we let them?
Joyce says, "keith, yes.""
kiwi [to Sibylle_Gruber]: yes, i think that's a good thing, too! I
would certainly hate for that to change!
OoglyBooglyBoo shows slide 8 on the CWOnline 2007 Projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
How can technology facilitate mentoring in the Computers and Writing
community? How can technology stand in the may of mentoring? What are
currently the technological tools of mentoring? Are new tools needed?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Gail admires Michael's intellectual curiosity about other fields ;-)
Keith [to Joyce]: that was the strength of cw!
Gail says, "And it gives us vitality!"
mday says, "But how far can we see outside our own CW world? I'm
talking about myself, not always knowing, not really sure."
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Keith, I sure hope so. Of course, there might be
turf wars, but that's nothing new. There might be ideas that we don't
agree with, but that's ok."
Keith [to Gail]: absolutely
kiwi wishes she now had time to keep up with all the techie
stuff--there's TOO much, so I rely on students to teach me things.
But then, our profs relied on us, too, didn't they?
Joyce says, "Yes. I think that the conference is very different in
that way. Every year I have a chance to mentor and be mentored and
look for excellence."
Keith [to mday]: maybe next time we should ensure as a community that
the next chair of 7cs is/are a grad student/s
Joyce says, "I think the important of bringing mentees to the
conference just can't be over-rated.""
kiwi [to Keith]: isn't that up to CCCC?
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Michael, that's a good point. I think it's
essential that we look outside the field to make sure we aren't
stagnant in our thinking"
kiwi nods to Joyce.
Keith [to kiwi]: well yes... i know one difference between life as a
grad student and life as a professor
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "peek 2"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "oops"
[ 7:42 pm ]
Keith didn't have to attend NEARLY so many damn meetings.
Joyce says, "Kiwi is also right that with the knowledge gap we NEED our
grad students to keep us up to date!""
kiwi grins at Keith.
Susan says, "I'd say the MOO has really been a unique form of
interaction for mentoring within the field. We have to be careful not
to lose that. A listserv just is not the same."
mday says, "I'm still old school; I like things like listservs and moos
and chats for online mentoring, and I am fairly sure that the
technology makes it easier to share and collaborate."
kiwi [to Joyce]: zackly!
Gail grins at Keith too
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "so do our students mentor us about technology?"
Keith [to kiwi]: it is but we could tell them that we think this is
important to consider and maintain as part of our community's history.
Gail says, "did you include IMing?"
Susan says, "it's the element of play Kiwi mentioned earlier. It
affects the relational dynamic in a welcoming way"
kiwi [to Susan]: no, listserv is not the same, and I definitely miss
the moo--but can we keep it? will it still work? I think here there
IS going to be a generational thing
mday says, "Kevin, yes, my students have been great about pulling me
into the future."
Joyce says, "oogly...absolutely.""
Keith [to mday]: moo is great because of the recorder.. that makes a
huge difference
mday [to Keith]: it's up to CCCC but we can make recommendations.
booboo says, "we will no doubt meet in yahoo voice-chat rooms "
Gail says, "Do they ever, Kevin!"
patrick_berry says, "oogly, I agree too""
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "so there is maybe something of a two-way
mentoring goin: one way that is explicit, the other way that is
implicit?"
kiwi uses IMing more and more with students (like Kami!)
Keith [to mday]: well that would be my strong recommendation.. for what
that is worth
Joyce says, "this is really a key difference to C&W I think!""
Joyce says, "two-way mentoring.""
Kami chuckles
kiwi nods to booboo.
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "the second way sounds like 'Keith you soo need to
replace that 1985 laptop!'"
Susan (to kiwi) "maybe not the MOO, but there needs to be a new
technology that can pick up where the leaves off."
Keith [to booboo]: I'm thinking of how we might program voice for the
moo
mday says, "and I agree too about the joy of bringing students/mentees
(since some of mine were colleagues, not students) to the CW
conferences."
patrick_berry says, "when I'm learning from my students, I doubt they
think they're mentoring me. Maybe they should...""
Joyce says, "Patrick, yes.""
kiwi [to Keith]: i'm on the 4Cs EC now--so I'd vote for that :)
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "the technology for that is already there:
ventrilo.com and teamspeak"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "I am not even sure whether we can keep up with
the technology. We have grad students who are making documentaries.
All our first-year students are creating websites (rhetorically sound,
we hope). The ddocumentary we show in our first-year class was done on
imovie. I couldn't help the GA much, but he figured it out, did his
research, made his argument, had great visuals that get a message
across. I don't know that I could do this right now."
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: there you go
kiwi grins at OoglyBooglyBoo.
Keith [to kiwi]: whoo hoo!!!!!!!
patrick_berry says, "Last semester, I had Skype office hours. Sunday
morning conversations... that was interesting...:) ""
kiwi [to Keith]: moo for the 21st century, yes.
OoglyBooglyBoo (to patrick_berry) "how could our students benefit if we
teach them that they are explicitely mentoring?"
Gail says, "I want to say that good mentoring is always implicit, but
maybe instead I should say that mentors are always different. Good
mentoring can happen in many different ways!"
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: well honesty is always good
Joyce says, "gail...do you think there are ways that we've mentored
you?""
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Gail, that's a great point. Different people need
different mentors."
Keith sometimes felt a bit exploited by folks he worked with at his phd
granting school because they rarely acknowledged that.'
kiwi agrees with Gail.
Susan says, "our students are different too-- and they need different
styles of mentoring."
Keith has certainly been mentored by Kevin. No doubt.
kiwi [to Keith]: yeah, me, too.
Keith says, "but now it's past that point."
Joyce says, "keith yes...there is a difference between seeing students
as mentors vs. free tech help.""
Susan types slowly :)
kiwi grins at Susan.
kiwi [to Susan]: you just need to moo more
Keith [to Joyce]: and that the younger folks often really are better at
the technology!
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "yep when does mentoring develop into something
more collegeial (sp? right word?)"
Susan agrees with kiwi
mday is out of practice.
Kami grins
Gail says, "Joyce, oh, yes--I learn from you all constantly! And I've
been so impressed with the way you and Sibylle interact with your
graduate students"
Joyce says, "Oogly...such a good question!""
OoglyBooglyBoo thunk of that all by himself
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: well, look at us... I mean, sometimes, yes,
about career, I still fall into mentor mode with you.. but generally,
we just do work togetehre.
kiwi still doesn't text message on her cell phone (I tried to respond
when Kami text messaged me, but I ended up just erasing her message).
Keith laughs
kiwi [to Kami]: so you need to mentor me more!
Joyce says, "can we work to make this sense of mentoring more
explicit...or would it perhaps be troublesome for students, who
sometimes want us to make them feel safe through our use of
authority.""
patrick_berry laughs
Kami laughs at kiwi
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "Keith is always telling me that I am too uptight
about absences!"
Keith recycled the beads from yesterday's parade five times.
Keith won't tell anyone that ever.
Kami (to kiwi) "i'll try and step up"
booboo (to Joyce) "I think it depends on the maturity of the student"
mday doesn't text message either, though my daughter tries to convert
me. I don't IM much either, now that she doesn't IM me.
kiwi [to Joyce]: yeah, both--we definitely need to give what the
student needs--whether that is advice, mentoring, or being
mentored....
kiwi grins at Kami.
Keith says, "yes, because you get all worked up about it!!! just mark
em gone and be done!"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "one of my concerns with mentoring is also who
gets left out?"
Keith [to mday]: I love txt!
Keith texts all over the world...
Susan grins. Some of us need mentors not prone to heart failure. I once
turned in a color-coded geometric paper written in code... but I did
turn in a "translation" with it. I will not be happen unless i am
doing something off the wall
kiwi [to mday]: I DO IM more and more. Students really like that I'm
available on IM (I keep 3 different ones going)
mday says, "So what gets left out?"
Joyce says, "like...students who don't get mentored are left out?""
Susan . o O ( no one can deal with me :( )
kiwi [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: good point
Gail says, "that's a good point, Joyce--about students sometimes
wanting authority"
Susan giggles
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Joyce) "yeah"
Kami (to Keith) "so do I...namely Scotland...lol"
booboo holds online IM hours
Keith [to Kami]: there you go
booboo says, "otherwise they'd be at me 24/7!"
mday says, "right Joyce. Or we might paint the world too rosily when
mentoring. Forget about the realities of life and career."
Joyce says, "mday ...yes, that true...we want them to be happy and
safe...but this might not always be best for them.""
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: well, and should there be an assumption that
all students need, want or can benefit from mentoring?
Sibylle_Gruber says, "I think too that some students / or colleagues
don't want to be mentored. "
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "mentoring on one hand, seems to work best when it
is informal (not required or institutionalized), but on the other
hand, can people be left out"
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: and they should be free to go their own
way...
mday says, "Or, as has been mentioned, we assume all mentees want a TT
academic career."
booboo nods to sibylle
kiwi [to Gail]: you're considered a mentor by so MANY students--many of
whom aren't at your school--but we ALL come to you to write letters of
recommendations, etc. How do you deal with that?
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "I don't know, some people, as Sibylle just
said, resent it"
patrick_berry says, "do you think good mentoring is contagious. i often
watch grad students pick up the ethos and styles of their mentors.
maybe some are still left out, but there's a chance of greater
reach...""
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "well maybe resent is too strong a word"
Keith somemetimes get mentored at ul that are meant well but since I
didn't ask for the help, I feel a bit patronized.
mday says, "it's interesting, though, that within the last year we
instituted a formal mentoring system in the department. When I got
here, I had to ask for a mentor, and got one, but not everyone knows
to do that."
Joyce says, "do we have an obligation to mentor? Can we pick and
choose, or do should we let mentees choose?""
kiwi has written letters for a few people in this room--and vice versa!
Keith says, "syntax!"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "I guess I'm trying to find ways of opening doors,
so students can walk through, but also of letting them know the door
is open, without shoving them through?"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Patrick, I always encourage mentoring
relationships among grad students. I think that can be extremely
helpful."
Keith [to Joyce]: I think it's more organic
[ 7:52 pm ]
Keith says, "some people just work well with others.... and I think
it's a matter of gift."
kiwi had a colleague with one-year seniority "appointed" as her mentor
here.
Keith would not appreciate that, thank you very much
mday says, "It depends on the definition of mentoring. Some of us
can't help but advise, because of our responsibilities, but not all
advising has to be mentoring."
patrick_berry says, "Sibylle, I think that becomes a key issue of
mentoring...encouraging others to do it.""
Joyce joyce would not either.
kiwi nods to mday.
Gail says, "Yes, there's a kind of mentoring that can be patronizing,
but that's not really mentoring--it's advising"
mday says, "and mentoring should not be required."
kiwi says, "And advising can, of course, be important too"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "It's interesting because we sometimes seem to
think that being a mentor is being "senior". I think that's probably
not the case in all situations."
Keith [to Gail]: and operating out of a power relationship that may not
be desirable!
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Gail) "yes mentoring can also be patriarchal"
mday says, "it should be an invitation, as others have said."
Joyce says, "when I think of mentoring, i think susan's earlier
definition works.""
kiwi [to Sibylle_Gruber]: exactly
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: oh I think that's necessary for mentoring
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: but not at all for collaborating
Susan says, "I agree about not assigning mentors. But in place of
assigning, opporuntities need to cultivated to help faciliate a more
organic process"
Gail says, "yes, that's true, Janice, but actually advising shouldn't
be patronizing either"
kiwi [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: or matriarchal. :)
kiwi [to Gail]: VERY true!
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Keith, wouldn't it depend on what kind of
mentoring we are talking about. I can think of situations where peer
mentoring would work quite well."
Joyce says, "well come to think of it, my mother was an excellent
mentor.""
OoglyBooglyBoo (to kiwi) "definitly"
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: hmmmm....
Gail says, "Yes, yes--I agree"
booboo is getting confused between mentoring, advising, and just plain
sharing knowledge!
kiwi grins at booboo.
Keith [to Sibylle_Gruber]: I think one thing that is my definition of
mentoring is an experiential difference...
booboo says, " :)"
Susan says, "so maybe schedule a meeting where a group can talk, and
let the relationships emerge from there-- I think that's what the GRN
does well"
Joyce says, "so is it sometimes about contributing a sense of
helpfullness and listening that doesn't require senority
necessarily..""
Gail says, "I sure hope that I'm not matriarchal"
kiwi nods to Susan.
Keith [to Gail]: sometimes you are!
OoglyBooglyBoo (to booboo) "I think the modes overlap--Kairos!"
kiwi says, "The GRN tries to do advising and mentoring, both, depending
on the needs of the students/presenters, yes. "
kiwi grins at Gail.
Keith is kidding!!!
patrick_berry Gail, you're not
Joyce says, "...but does require expertise...""
Keith [to Joyce]: exactly
Gail says, "Keith, oh, no!"
OoglyBooglyBoo was channelling Hugh Burns just then
mday says, "OK, I am about to fall out of my chair from hunger and
exhaustion. Need to go home, move snow, get food."
mday says, "Thanks all!"
Keith was really kidding!!!
Sibylle_Gruber says, "I can quite certainly say that not many people
would consider me matriarchal :-)"
kiwi [to mday]: see you online!
OoglyBooglyBoo waves to mday
mday waves night night.
booboo says, "agrees with Oogly re overlap"
patrick_berry goodnight mday
mday has disconnected.
booboo says, "g'night michael"
Susan waves to mday
Joyce says, "gail, if matriarchal means caring and considering with
your heart what is good for people, you are.""
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "This has been a great discussion"
LL waces to mday
JoelB has disconnected.
LL waves
Keith [to Gail]: what joyce said, big time
Gail smiles at Keith
kiwi agrees.
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "and I am happy to continue it, but we have gone
over time :)"
Sibylle_Gruber says, "Thanks for a great discussion"
Gail says, "waves good-bye to Michael"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "I would like to thank the facilitators again"
Keith says, "we might be talking to you about a journal article outta
this"
OoglyBooglyBoo shows slide 2 on the CWOnline 2007 Projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Facilitators:
Patrick Berry, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.
Sibylle Gruber, Northern Arizona University.
Gail Hawisher, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.
Janice Walker, Georgia Southern University.
Joyce R. Walker, Western Michigan University.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
booboo thanks all for the excellent food for thought
kiwi [to Gail]: you are and i hope will always continue to be a model
for what we all want to be as mentors.
Sibylle_Gruber wants to finish in one big wave
OoglyBooglyBoo notes that he fixed his spelling error--sorry!
Kami sits contently, absorbing
Keith says, "this has been quite intersting and helpful!"
kiwi waves big for Sibylle.
patrick_berry says, "Thank you all!""
Susan cheers
Joyce smiles at everyone.
Keith thanks everyone!!!
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "Thank you all for coming"
kiwi says, "Thanks to the CWOnline coordinators!!!"
patrick_berry waves to all
Joyce and waves goodbye
Keith blushes
kiwi cheers.
booboo 3 cheers and pooof
booboo has disconnected.
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "we have three synchronous sessions tommorrow"
OoglyBooglyBoo shows slide 9 on the CWOnline 2007 Projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
CWOnline 2007 Synchronous MOO Sessions, Wednesday, February 7, 2007
5:00 -5:45 pm: Christyne Berzsenyi, Pennsylvania State University,
Wilkes-Barre Campus.
"Writing to Meet Your Match: Rhetoric, Perceptions, and
Self-Presentatio
n for Four Online Daters"
6:00 - 6:45 pm: Elizabeth Losh. University of California, Irvine.
"Waiting Room:Interactive Media, Modified Game Play, and the Birth of
the Virtual Clinic."
7:00 - 7:45pm: Lei Lani Michel. University of Washington.
"The Trouble ofFinding Images Online: The Rhetoric of Image-Seeking
Practices for Multi-modal Composition."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[log closed]