AcadianaMOO
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AcadianaMOO
[log started Wed Feb 7 19:01:14 2007 CST]
Participants: OoglyBooglyBoo, lizlosh, LL, christyneberzsenyi, mday,
Susan, Keith, and Lynda
Keith turns the Southwestern Cafe Recorder on.
christyneberzsenyi enjoying herself
Keith is also
Keith says, "our current event is as follows!"
lizlosh has disconnected.
Keith shows the slide "schedule" on the magic lantern.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Thursday, February 8, 2007
5:00 - 6:45 pm:
GRN Session Two: Job Search Roundtables
7:00 - 8:30pm:
7C's Town Hall Meeting
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Keith says, "Lei Lani Michel is a Ph.D. candidate in Language and
Rhetoric at the University of Washington - Seattle. She is currently
writing her dissertation "The Rhetoric of Finding Images," a project
on the relationships in visual studies, composition, and technology. "
Keith says, "Her research interests include finding images online, the
language of visual studies, ethics and images, and how students write
about these issues. She enjoyed teaching in the computer-integrated
expository writing classrooms at UW and worked as an adjunct English
instructor at the River Parish Community College in south Louisiana. "
Keith says, "Other interests include dancing and the post-Katrina
recovery effort. "
LL says, "hi everyone, thank you for coming""
Keith says, "and her paper is at
http://acadianamoo.org/cwonline2007/pap
ers/cw2007_michel.pdf"
mday claps and cheers!
Keith says, "thanks, LL, all yours!!!"
Susan once did a presentation on how the same images online get reused
on different types of sites.
LL says, "Let me start with the context for this project""
christyneberzsenyi interested in the subject of image-to-image
searching
LL says, "I am interested in what visual studies +looks+ like in
composition, and there are several FYC texts that use pictures as part
of their rhetoric""
LL says, "I like teaching with images since I'm a pretty visual person,
but there's always a type of break bw showing the students lots of
great pictures""
mday says, "Oh I've been trying to follow these new books too. This
should be fun."
LL says, "and then when they return their papers, it's usually always
only text. It made me think about ways for students to compose
visually rich texts""
LL says, "And as I was reading the prompts, one of the things that
stood out to me was that the process of finding pictures seemed to be
a given""
Keith perks his ears
mday says, "That's exactly the problem we face. Why teach visual rhet
if they are just gonna write print texts?"
LL says, "That it was something that wasn't problematic, and it struck
me as strange. Because I know that I like to find pictures, but it's
sort of tough unless you know the referents that would be on a page,
like an artists name, genre, time period, type of publication""
LL agrees with mday
LL says, "And the difference bw the text-search on search engines like
google and yahoo seem more popular than the image-search"
Keith [to LL]: oh you mean invention -- how do they actually find the
images
LL says, "yes, do they know the phrases to retrieve the images""
christyneberzsenyi says, "is there an image-image search engine in use
online by the public? "
mday says, "Yeah, it's been tough searching for images in google, for
exactly the reasons you describe. If the tags aren't good, you won't
find it."
Keith nods, unless you already use images a lot -- then image search
becomes very useful all of a sudden, but yes, for students, they look
for images by doing text searchs.
christyneberzsenyi says, "or are we talking about the possibilities of
really developing such as search engine?"
Keith [to christyneberzsenyi]: Google has it built in
LL says, "that's one of the areas I've been thinking about""
mday says, "imagine being able to search for a shape that you drew into
the query field!"
LL says, "and what I'm trying to write about in my diss is to think
about multiple ways of searching""
christyneberzsenyi (to Keith) "Oh as part of its usual process"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to mday) "I had a friend in computer science working on
just that"
mday says, "or a set of colors, or a pattern?"
Keith [to christyneberzsenyi]: but mday is right, it's tough if it
hasn't been indexed by the web page author
LL says, "usually that area is called content-based image retrieval,
and it's still not as accurate as the text searches""
Keith [to LL]: oh yes, that would be cool!
mday [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: that would be a sort of holy grail of
searching, if you could input other than text in your search.
christyneberzsenyi says, "I imagine the issue of narrowing your search
is a primary problem just as it is with other forms of searches--so
that you don't get a porno site and a "curves" gym ad in the same
results list"
LL says, "there's several sites that are working on it now""
mday says, "Like, have you ever tried to search for bird songs?"
Keith [to christyneberzsenyi]: that's a problem?
OoglyBooglyBoo (to mday) "yes he said that the problem involved a lot
of sophisticated artificial intelligence: I.e. teaching a computer how
to look"
Keith grins
LL says, "one of the consumer ones is called like.com, if anyone want
to open a browser and see it""
[ 7:11 pm ]
Keith says, "http://like.com"
mday says, "OK, I will. This sounds great."
Keith has disconnected.
LL thanks keith
OoglyBooglyBoo has to fix that bug!
Keith has connected.
christyneberzsenyi says, "I see what you mean with like.com"
Keith nods
LL says, "One of the issues that usually pops up with technology and
writing instructors is that there's a hesitation, that speaking about
the issue will put us in a place to be experts on the technology""
Keith says, "interesting"
Keith says, "that needs to be resisted!"
LL says, "but I think as rhetors, we can think more about the language
associated with search engines""
Keith thinks that an outgrowth of teacher-centered learning
LL agrees
mday just looked at like.com. It's a similarity search, not one that
you can input your own shape or sound.
LL says, "so the two main points i wanted to make was that we can have
a more granular way of asking our students to search for images""
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "it is so conumerist based lol"
mday says, "granular is a good term. It seems iterative too."
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "consumerist"
LL says, "the first is thinking through a text query. why do you think
the webpage wrote these words with that image, how are they related""
christyneberzsenyi says, "the other challenges that I face are not only
being accused on being a techno-expert or trying to be or invading
that territory, but also of dealing with images-when written language
is supposed to be the domain of english faculty. Know what I mean?"
mday says, "like.com does seem based on likenesses that fit a
consumerist stereotype, yes."
Keith [to christyneberzsenyi]: just issue the term
OoglyBooglyBoo (to christyneberzsenyi) "I know exactly what you mean"
Keith says, ""multi-modal""
LL says, "YES!""
Keith says, "and the doors of the kingdom will open"
LL says, "that's exactly it, that if we spend too much time on visuals,
what will happen to the writing?""
mday knows exACTly, Christyne. Always accused of not paying attn. to
plain text
Keith says, "of course, we argue back that images and their use ARE
writing"
LL says, "but i think comp and other fields are in sync, it is another
way of thinking of meaning""
mday thinks we all agree on that, technorhetoricians that we are.
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "but visiaul are often highly symbolic
constructions, with their own grammar"
christyneberzsenyi really bonding with the term technorhetoricians
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "especially in computer games, wheere scences
are composed piecemeal from databases"
Keith is writing a Phd exam this semester on e-texts, especially poetry
mday says, "LL, what was the "it" in that last sentence?"
Keith [to mday]: the complaints you get!
mday is wanting to follow the path, not complaining at all.
LL says, "it, in that context, would be the the way we approach texts,
visuals and texts and how they related to each other""
LL says, "i think""
Keith says, "'it's generally a snake or frog'""
mday says, "thanks!"
Susan . o O ( everyhting is a text )
mday [to Susan]: you Derridean you!
LL says, "the skill of being able to find images seems to be an
increasingly important one""
Keith [to LL]: complicated by the IP issues involved...
LL says, "the ip issues are such an issue, but then there's the
remixing argument that draws me in""
Keith is fascinating by such appropriations
Keith says, "umm, that's hopefully true but I meant "fascinated"!"
LL says, "maybe we need to cross mickey mouse off of our search list?
:) ""
christyneberzsenyi (to LL) "I wonder how you came to the phrasing the
trouble of finding images I wondered about the of as opposed to in or
with. Are you making a reference to someone else's work that I don't
know or other connotations I'm not getting?"
LL says, "oh, i'm thinking of the laurence lessig keynote at 4c's - it
was 2004?""
LL says, "2005?""
Keith says, "yah, I forget the year but that was great"
LL says, "the trouble of actually came from derrida""
LL says, "i was reading his text the work of mourning""
christyneberzsenyi says, "ok, I am not familiar with him/it and I kept
rereading it . . . ok, I'm ignorant"
Keith says, "2005... googled it!"
christyneberzsenyi says, "meaning lessing"
[ 7:21 pm ]
OoglyBooglyBoo has not read that one either but is writing it down
LL says, "and there's this sort of feeling to it that one has to go
through something to get to something - - still working that out""
LL says, "so to mourn, one has to go through the work of it""
mday says, "yes, the trouble did come from Derrida. All of it."
LL says, "and i thought, oh, to find images, one has to go through the
trouble of it""
OoglyBooglyBoo giggles at mday!
OoglyBooglyBoo . o O ( Derrida night in the MOO )
Susan grins
LL says, "finding images is easy, they are everywhere, but at the same
time""
christyneberzsenyi says, "thanks for that explanation"
Keith laughs
mday says, "The Lessig keynote was awesome. It's online."
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "always already everywhere!!"
LL says, "there's usually this moment when i think, i saw this picture,
and i know what it looks like, but i don't know who photographed or
painted it""
mday [to Keith]: lemme take a look
Keith [to LL]: or what site it was on
Keith [to mday]: thanks!
LL says, "and that's why being sensitive to pictures - this looks like
that - might become another way of searching""
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "oh I know that deeling"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "Oh images as metaphor"
LL says, "and a useful literacy skill, being actively able to make
those connections""
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "feeling I meant to say doh!"
Keith says, "images as analogy, isn't it?"
LL says, "d'oh!""
LL says, "yes, that's it""
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "I think analogy is too specific"
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: why?
LL says, "i'd like to hear how other people approach searching for
images""
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "because analogy connotes comparison to explain
something"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "I start from text"
Keith says, "it's analogic to go well, ok, it looked like Monet but it
wasn't but it involved a pond"
LL says, "in the writing in a visual age text by odell, which is a
great book, there's those bullet points in my paper that shows the
questions, but finding them isn't a question, and it seems like it
could be""
Keith [to LL]: i got straight to google image
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "I used to have to make these poetry reading
flyers, and I would type in, say tutrle into googles image search"
Susan says, "I will often search for an image archive, and then browse
to the category I want. Use the google image search, too."
Keith says,
"http://images.google.com/imghp?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=
wi&q="
Keith says, "and i work backwards from that... unless I'm looking for
myths -- I teach representation of myth a lot... so then I need a
Ganymede"
Keith says, "and then I abandon text soon after that"
Susan says, "so, someties I do not always have a set idea of what i am
looking for, but what I find might inspire or alter the document or
design in unpredictable ways."
mday says, "I do both. Browse image collections for what I want, or
use text that might describe what is in the image, or what shape it
is."
Keith [to mday]: talk more about shape
mday [to Susan]: that's browsing in the best sense of the concept
LL says, "i like asking my students to go to image collections too,
since they are already catagorized""
Keith [to Susan]: yes, me, which is why i can look at the pretty little
pictures first.
mday says, "If I want a cone or a pyramid shape, I will type that in.
I might also put in color words. Or black and white as serach terms"
LL says, "i think one of the other issues this project works with is to
have students rely less on search engines, and only search engines, as
content""
mday [to Susan]: like browsing in the library stacks.
Susan nods
christyneberzsenyi says, "do you suggest using a kind of Bolean kind of
narrowing search process with "and" "but" "or" "not" and so forth?"
Keith [to mday]: cone in text? or in an image search or both?
mday [to LL]: ooh, how else besides search engines?
LL says, "not that search engines are not useful, but expanding the
scope of where they can get their sources""
mday says, "I'm assuming we start in an image search, not text."
Keith [to LL]: what do you mean by search engines as content?
Keith [to mday]: I'll go try it
LL says, "meaning they go to only google and not something like
ebscohost""
Keith [to LL]: ah ok
LL says, "it's not a new idea, but one that i think bears repeating""
Keith [to LL]: those are both content-seekers though, just different
levels of authority...
[ 7:31 pm ]
Keith is a bugaboo about all levels of students using peer- reviewed
research, even first year comp students.
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "one of the things that fascinated me is the
underlying assumption that images are composed of searchable units,
like words in a text"
mday has been consistently annoyed, over the years, with the
advertising crap you get if you type in "free images"
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: though it's the indexing that does that
mday says, "That search is a conceptual oxymoron."
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "sort of like image as language versus image as
a whole undivisible unit"
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: if I take an image of a boy and call it
girl.jpg, that will break down.
LL (to OoglyBooglyBoo) "if there are parts of the image that can be
searched, like color or shape, then pointing it out in class might be
useful"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "no I mean within the images"
Keith says, "oh I know"
Susan nods.. a lot of the free site link to other sites, and if you
don't read the fine print, you can end up going around and around to
different sites and never get to the images. Very annoying indeed.
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "that the boy in the image is not a boy, but
a symol, a part of the the whole meaning of the image"
mday says, "and never getting out of the loop."
Keith says, "but you can't search jpg files as such... though much
information is there"
LL says, "I want to problematize searching for images""
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "symbol--why can I not spell"
Keith [to LL]: yeah
LL says, "not just make it a given skill that students know how to do
it, to be more aware of the terms they select""
Keith says, "now, what would be useful here is xml"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "yes a way of 'reading' rather than 'consuming'
images"
mday nods to keith, because you can set up your own categories.
Keith says, "you could put tons of information in an xml tag -- but you
still don't get to the image, because there is no image"
Keith says, "there's a file that recreates the image in a browser"
Keith says, "and the file could be made searchable... as a virus
checker does when it reads jpgs for embedded viruses"
LL says, "that's why i liked the spiegelman quote, the things that
students search for on their own time might or might not be
transferable when we ask them to search in our writing classrooms""
Keith [to LL]: that's because they're doing more interesting writing
than we assign them!
LL says, "what is the context when a student +wants+ to search for a
picture""
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "or looking ar prOn!"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "at"
LL laughs!
Keith says, "well, that's what I jhust said!"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "I came across an image once through google search
that had a caption something like: for all you perverts out there,
this is not an image of &**^&*(*ing"
Keith says, "is there an engine that searches the jpg or gif itself?
the words that make up the jpg or gif?"
christyneberzsenyi says, "do you prohibit pornographic images for their
papers in class?"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "they actually termed it google perverts or
something like that"
Keith [to christyneberzsenyi]: oh no. they are often working on
representations of the body and porn is often the cultural depository
for our anxieties and belief about what our bodies are.
christyneberzsenyi snickering over google pervs
LL says, "so far i haven't dealt with students bringing in porn or
extra-violent pictures, although there's a subtext to it whenever we
search for pictures""
OoglyBooglyBoo (to christyneberzsenyi) "I was like who me?"
Keith laughs
Keith also works with piercing sites
Keith says, "stay turned for CW 2008"
Keith says, "and then faint"
christyneberzsenyi says, "intriging topic"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "I think students recognize the discourse
constraints of what images are and are not appropriate for a
community"
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: some do, but in my case, where those
boundaries are nonexistent, how are they to know?
christyneberzsenyi says, "that certainly is part of learning about
discourse communities and effectively operating within them. "
Keith says, "in my case, everything is open for quotation"
Keith says, "and I do mean everything"
LL says, "although i think that sometimes difficult pictures help
students think about how they are labelled""
Keith warns students about this the first day
Keith [to LL]: you betcha
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "nonexistent or not explicitly stated, or
defined outside of the classroom, say byt he tradition of what thou
shal;t not bring into the classroom"
LL says, "for example, in one of the texts, convergences by atwan,
there's an excerpt by sontag on her regarding the pain of others""
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "oh I like that idea"
Keith says, "you have a student do a paper on nipple piercing with pics
and quicktime movies, you have students quickly involved in what's
legit for the classroom!"
LL says, "and the pictures are already provided, so there's a third
context for finding pictures, that i didn't get to in this paper, but
there are times when we ask students to find pictures""
Keith [to OoglyBooglyBoo]: in my case, explicitly ripped up and thrown
away!
LL says, "but we reallllly don't want them to find them'"
Keith knows what LL means!
christyneberzsenyi says, "yeah, I see what you mean. Helping students
to really confront and analyze the text and its meanings vs. simply
using the picture as a way to cross the line that has been there and
feeling gigglingly rebellious but without a real purpose"
mday says, "we want them analyzing and incorporating texts that we
"know" or "value""
Keith [to mday]: maybe, mday, maybe...
LL says, "i'm interested in the rhetorical use of find when it comes to
pictures""
[ 7:41 pm ]
Keith says, "i like being surprised, though I DO ask students to show
me first before I let them put it on screen"
Keith would never say no, though...
Keith says, "i just want to prepare the other students"
LL knows the feeling
christyneberzsenyi says, "as was stated previously, how a person labels
a picture will impact how others can search for it"
Keith says, "yup"
LL says, "that was one of the starting points for this project""
OoglyBooglyBoo (to christyneberzsenyi) "defintely"
Keith says, "I find the opposite of google perving upsetting"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "what is the opposite?"
LL says, "i kept trying to find the pictures of looting-finding on
google images""
christyneberzsenyi wondering the opposite
LL says, "and the query katrina racism was the one that brought up a
lot""
Keith says, "a tag that is deliberately misleading and innocent
associated with a dangerous or sexual or extra-violent image."
mday says, "that "we" wasn't us. It was the institutional "we" implied
by those texts."
OoglyBooglyBoo (to Keith) "oh yeah"
Keith [to mday]: I knew that
Keith [to LL]: huh
Keith says, "that was 'huh"
LL says, "perhaps saying a lot about the photos that were circulated
and how they were already assigned a meaning""
Keith says, "as in odd, not as in I did not understand"
Keith [to LL]: exactly
mday says, "yeah, I find the process of tagging images interesting.
How does one adequately describe an image? And how do visually
impaired students use images, if they can?"
Keith says, "well, it's time to wind this down.. last comments?"
Keith [to mday]: they use them if they are tagged...
mday says, "right."
LL says, "oh, i wanted to find the pictures that showed one person
looting and other finding but the query katrina racism brought up the
most amt of pictures of that""
Keith says, "and in that case, the tag becomes the image"
Keith [to LL]: I knew that.. I mean huh as in, oh that's striking
LL says, "so the meaning of the picture, before a student could
interpret it, was already determined""
Keith [to LL]: yeah, exactly
christyneberzsenyi agreeing
LL says, "eep, still working through the ideas, but searching for
images is a neat area""
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "It is!"
Keith [to LL]: sounds very very intriguing
christyneberzsenyi says, "with about 80% of communication happening
through nonverbal means, there is a case for the importance of
studying nonverbal cues"
mday cheers for and thanks LL! Off to find some food.
LL says, "thanks everyone!""
Lynda steps into the Southwestern Cafe.
mday waves and night nights!
Keith says, "don't forget to ask recorder for text"
mday has disconnected.
christyneberzsenyi (to LL) "thanks a lot"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to LL) "thanks!"
OoglyBooglyBoo says, "thank you to all of the presentors"
Keith [to Lynda]: hello, we just finished up for the night!
christyneberzsenyi says, "I've got some new ideas to work with my
Advanced Business Writing students !"
Keith says, "thanks, y'awl!"
Lynda says, "dang!"
OoglyBooglyBoo (to christyneberzsenyi) "oh I had not thought it it that
way"
[log closed]